PALEOCRAT ETC."Before your words come to the tongue, let them pass twice under the file of examination." ~St. Bernard
About this Entry
Posted by: Paleocrat_etc

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site

Original: 8/18/2008 9:57 AM
Views: 1261
Comments: 22
eProps: 12

Read Comments
Post a Comment
Back to Your Xanga Site



Monday, August 18, 2008

VAN TIL: CONCLUSION: SOLA SCRIPTURA

 

Not unlike many of my other promises, I have been quite slack in making good on my vow to finish this series on Van Til and his belief that presuppositionalism was philosophically and theologically at enmity with Catholicism. Thus far we have seen that he was wrong on a number of counts. In some areas he appears to be ignorant, in others disingenuous. In any case, my final contribution to this matter concerns authority, and I will be particularly dealing with his contention that Sola Scriptura is an essential component of presuppositionalism.

 

In Defense of the Faith, Van Til states:

 

“Rome knows of no absolute authority such as Protestantism has in its doctrine of Scripture.”

 

This doctrine he is speaking of would, of course, be none other than Sola Scriptura.

 

In Christian Apologetics he says much the same:

 

“Rome simply has not the materials with which to build a really Christian concept of authority. A truly Christian concept of authority presupposes that in all he does man is face to face with the requirements of God.”

 

While I have other entries dealing with the general concept of authority, God’s determinative will, and His control over the affairs of man, I will confine myself to the passages pertaining to his steadfast contention that Sola Scriptura is a necessary precondition for the presuppositional method, as it alone can provide for a truly Christian concept of authority.

 

The novel doctrine of Sola Scriptura, born at the time of the Protestant Revolution, has shown itself to be riddled with problems, all of which have serious ramifications on the Protestant (if I may speak of them as a single body) notion of authority. Listing them off would do us well.

 

1. The canon. On the one hand, Protestant scholars cannot declare with any force that the canon is infallible. In fact, in the book entitled Sola Scriptura! The Protestant Position on the Bible, a collection of essays from notables such as R.C. Sproul, James White, John Armstrong, Sinclair Ferguson, and Joel Beeke, the concession was made that the canon was fallible! Yet on the other hand they wish to say that this admittedly fallible collection of no more and no less than the 66 books is the ultimate authority for all faith and practice, and that it is absolutely unacceptable for anyone to question it, much less add or subtract from it. That is, in essence, paramount to saying that one cannot cross a boundary marker that may or may not be wrongfully drawn up.  

 

Consequently, the Protestant is unable to explain how his or her view of the canon is in any way binding on the conscience of another. A good friend recently reminded me of a remark I used to make in regards to this dilemma. I would say that Protestants are fallible men fallibly interpreting a fallible collection of what they hope and pray are infallible books. This is true to a fault.

 

At issue here is whether or not a Protestant can impose the canon of 66 upon the conscience of another. They admit that it is a fallible collection, their having already ripped out a number of books from its binding seems indicative of the idea that men have within themselves the ability and right to disregard those books they believe to be short of inspired or contradictory to their understanding of various doctrines. But as with many other things, Luther and Co. were able to invoke privileges no other Protestant has been permitted to invoke ever since. Any attempt at such insubordination is reason for expulsion.

 

2. The MSS. When dealing with manuscripts, searching for the most ancient and reliable, one cannot but laugh at the irony. While Protestants may love to lambast Catholics for hatred of the Scripture, and most of them believe it abandoned the faith a few hundred years after the death of St. John (and I am being generous here), the MSS they rely upon were written, by and large, during the period where apostasy ran rampant. On what grounds does the Protestant believe that the priests, monks, and hermits handling the transmission of the texts didn’t tamper with them? Protestants are forced to rely on the honest scholarship of “Bible hating, Pope honoring, Mary adoring” apostates.

 

3. Interpretation. Aside from the canon and the manuscripts, interpretation causes a serious problem for both the Protestant and the presuppositionalist. While their may generally recognize the authority of Scripture Alone, they lack any internal mechanism by which to interpret its contents in any universally binding fashion. They may, and do, come to what they believe are accurate conclusions. They believe they are staying true to the intent of the author. They would, by necessity, believe what they believe to be not only true, but the main or only way any given issue can or should be believed. The problem is that every Protestant with a differing view on any given matter believes the same thing. While these would be too numerous to count, their being as numerous as the sands of the sea, a simple look in a Church directory would give us a sound indicator as to how far the ecclesiological pluralism and hermeneutical relativism has spread. Suffice it to say that such a query is disheartening even for the most starry-eyed ecumenist.

 

4. Will the real Sola Scriptura please stand up? There has been much debate over the years as to what exactly Sola Scriptura is, what role (if any) the ecclesial body plays, the role of catechisms and creeds, etc. We have also seen the advent of the term Solo Scriptura to distinguish one school of thought from another. Either way, confusion runs wild. Some go as far as to deny that they have ever properly understood Sola Scriptura, and only recently are they beginning to really grasp the true meaning of this doctrine. Worse yet, one is at a loss as to how, once Sola Scriptura is given a satisfactory definition, any Protestant will then declare his understanding to be the one and only (or even best) understanding over against rival positions. For to treat Protestantism as a single entity would be absurd.

 

Let us return again to the issue of whether or not Sola Scriptura is an essential component of presuppositionalism. Let us also ignore but for a moment the difficulties posed by the above reflections. For the sake of the argument, let us concede that this is what they believe and that they shall not budge. Now let’s play the part of the devil’s advocate.

 

The Protestant presuppositionalist presses the atheist against the intellectual ropes. He asks time and again whether or not the atheist can account for X, Y, or Z from their espoused worldview. They prove effectually that the atheist cannot. Then what? They insist that the Christian worldview and it alone can account for X, Y, and Z. The atheist could, and should, ask on what authority that Protestant’s take on “the Christian worldview” in binding. The reason being that “the Christian worldview” as defined by the Protestant presuppositionalist is derived, by and large, from his interpretation of the Scripture. As such, it faces the difficulties mentioned above. In the end, the Protestant presuppositionalist is forced to say that it is his understanding of the Christian worldview is based upon a fallible man’s fallible interpretation of an admittedly fallible collection of what he hopes and prays are infallible books.

 

The burning question is whether or not the Catholic is in the same leaky boat. I dare to answer in the negative. Catholicism has within itself the means by which to resolve these difficulties. Thanks to our position on the infallibility of the Church, we can rest assured that the canon is as infallible as the text is inerrant. Our knowledge of how meticulous the priests, monks, and hermits were in translation and transmitting the manuscripts, coupled with our belief in the divine providence of God, leads us to trust in the integrity of the documents. And our dogmatic appeals court along with the doctrine of the Church's infallibility provides us with a knowledge of what can authoritatively and universally be said to be the Christian worldview. In short, Catholicism, not Protestantism, has the preconditions necessary for answering the every powerful "By what standard?"

 

In conclusion, Van Til was wrong. He was wrong on many counts. His understanding of the Catholic faith was shoddy, and the scholarship in his printed material is evidence of this. But worst of all is that he had a mistaken understanding of the very school of apologetic thought he is espoused to have championed. His not being able to see the achilles heel of Sola Scriptura and the way that doctrine would (and does) paralyze his entire method is remarkable.


Do I believe that presuppositionalists will buy my arguments hook, line, and sinker? No, not at all. In fact, I readily accept that many of them have chosen, for one reason or another, to ignore this matter altogether. But it is my prayer that some of them will see that, as Sarah Hodges righfully pointed out, presuppositionalism finds its home in the Holy Catholic Church, and that outside of her walls the method is unable to account for the necessary preconditions of its own utility.

 Posted 8/18/2008 9:57 AM - 1261 Views - 12 eProps - 22 comments

Give eProps or Post a Comment

22 Comments

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!
It's so incredibly laughable that a Protestant like van Til could be so ignorant as to say that the Catholic Church "knows of no absolute authority such as Protestantism has in its doctrine of Scripture." Has he never heard of the infallibility of the Church?

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm really disappointed. I used to think of van Til as a confused, but honest Christian apologist. Now, I hardly can consider him anything other than yet another sample of Protestantism's endless supply of ignorant revolutionaries.

What's funny is that the more hard core Protestants will press very hard on how much authority the Scriptures have and how great their authority is in the beginning of a discussion. But at the end of a long discussion when the aforementioned points are pressed, and he makes the ridiculous claim that "the Church" is comprised of so many thousands of Protestant sects, none of whom agree on what the Scriptures principally teach, he admits that one need not even interpret the Scriptures correctly for salvation.

Some great authority indeed! "The Scriptures are the only infallible rule!" he shouts.

But nobody cares since it doesn't matter what you think the Scriptures teach. Believe that you should baptise babies? Think they should wait until they are adults? Should you use the Trinitarian formula? Use only the name of the Lord Jesus? Should baptism be done by immersion or by sprinkling? Does baptism regenerate? Should you confess your sins committed before baptism? &c. &c. &c. And your answer to any of these questions could be whatever you want and a Protestant will say, "No big deal!" And to top it off, the Bible says that the doctrine of baptism is a basic and elementary doctrine (cf. Hebrews VI:ii).

The only thing that matters is if you believe that the Scriptures are the only authority. This is tantamount to Parliament saying that every man may do whatever he wants as long as he believes his actions have been warranted by British law.

* * *

JUDGE: Sir, you murdered a man in cold blood.

DEFENDANT: Yes, your Worship, I did. But I believe that the law allows me to do so with immunity.

JUDGE: Ah, yes. You've a point, sire; I previously thought that you rejected the law altogether. It seems that you affirm the authority of the law after all. You are free to go, good man.

DEFENDANT: God save the Queen.

* * *

So it's always a stumper for me. The Protestant will say that he is not a Catholic and believes the Catholic Church to be a false Church because she teaches error, but then will go on tolerating the most absurd errors in the world from every Protestant sect not his own on the grounds that doctrines don't matter anyway! Then why leave the Catholic Church? I have no idea.
Posted 8/18/2008 11:49 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

Visit Famous_Amos_1987's Xanga Site!

Let's be real: I am *NOT* going to read this post- it's too long for me at my current reading skillz levelz, lol.

But, on a serious note, please check out my Post on Sola Scriptura!!!

Posted 8/19/2008 9:57 AM by Famous_Amos_1987 - reply

Visit Daveyh8's Xanga Site!
"the concession was made that the canon was fallible!"

...


just...

.
Posted 8/19/2008 10:19 AM by Daveyh8 - reply

Visit Famous_Amos_1987's Xanga Site!

@MysteriumFidei - "And your answer to any of these questions could be whatever you want and a Protestant will say, "No big deal!""

OR, the Protestants will all fight amonst themselves, arguing over whose arbitrary interpretation of Scripture is correct, thus making the Holy Universal Church of Christ a bloody fucking spectacle in the eyes of the world. Good job, Protestants! High-five! Woo-hoo! We're in God's kingdom, everything's groovy. Whoo-hoo! etc.

Posted 8/19/2008 12:09 PM by Famous_Amos_1987 - reply

Visit Famous_Amos_1987's Xanga Site!
Paleo: I read the post. 5/5 stars.
Posted 8/19/2008 1:00 PM by Famous_Amos_1987 - reply

Visit Ulich_Varange's Xanga Site!
Good stuff man.
Posted 8/19/2008 9:33 PM by Ulich_Varange - reply

Visit ContemplataTradere's Xanga Site!

rejecting sola scriptura was the key to my conversion. The book Not by Scripture Alone; a Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura was the means. Once one grants the authority of the Church, then all else falls into place with respect to doctrines.

Good post.

Posted 9/1/2008 8:51 PM by ContemplataTradere - reply

My presuppositional critique o fvan til bahnsen and frame

http://www.nicenetruth.com/home/2008/09/my-presuppositi.html

Posted 9/16/2008 3:16 PM by Jay Dyer (site) - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!
The 66 books were chosen because they evidenced divine inspiration as scripture and were in harmony with each other. II Timothy 3.16 states: "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." But there are also uninspired scriptures. Men selected these books based upon their uniformity and conformity. Are men fallible? Yes, even the Pope, at least that's what scripture says. I would be interested to know if the following verse is in your own canon of scripture: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” - 1Jo 1:8
Posted 2/24/2009 5:12 AM by templestream - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@templestream - 

Harmony? Then why do many different views on the same passages or topics? Why did Martin Luther think the book of James should be burned in the fire for teaching a gospel of works? Difficult passages and tensions are very real.

Are all men fallible? Yes. And even the pope! Do your homework. Our doctrine of infallibility has nothing, and let me repeat, nothing to do with his personal life. If has to do with the promulgation of dogma. It is a negative chrism. Goodness alive. The popes are notorious for confessing their sins every day. Seriously, do some homework.

All men are fallible? Yes. OK, so then why do you trust the decision made by a bunch of bishops who believes in the Mass, Liturgy, apostolic succession, the papacy, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, purgatory, limbo, and relics to pick the right books? They were robots! As much as they wanted to put "Catholic" stuff in there, God took over their bodies and wills in order to overcome their antichrist impulses.

Still, you are left with two problems:

1. Why do Protestants believe God oversaw the formulation of the canon in order to have a standard for truth, but then he left individuals to their own devices to come up with tons of interpretations and denominations?

2. Why is their decision on 66 (which is was not) binding? It is just a bunch of guys making a decision and then telling everyone that they must agree. They may see it as consistent, but what if someone else doesn't? And how can they empirically prove whether or not various affirmations are true.

In sum, you have no clue about the history of the canon, no clue concerning who was involved in the creation of the canon, no clue about what they believes, no answer as to why God would oversee the standard for truth but then leave us to our own devices, no answer as to how any of this is binding on anyone but the bishops that made the decision, and no answer as to how they were certain that the books were consistent.
Posted 2/24/2009 11:14 PM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!

 "Our doctrine of infallibility has nothing, and let me repeat, nothing to do with his personal life. If has to do with the promulgation of dogma."

The Apostle Paul wrote “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.”  Eph 2:8

But your dogma states: “If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12). This idea is repeated in various canons. You can see all the sources at this link if you are interested.

Hmmm. They can’t both be right. I wonder which one isn’t?

Was the collection of indulgences for sins also based on the pope's inspired dogma? I did not see that anywhere in the New Testament. Was the Inquisition and slaying of millions who did not agree to the above dogma also based on the pope’s infallible dogma?

 

Posted 2/25/2009 8:28 AM by templestream - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@templestream - 

Step back for a moment here. Take a breath. Then realize what you have done.

1. I pointed out how you misconstrued (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it was ignorance) the concept of papal infallibility.

2. You quoted this.

3. You changed topics to the issue of justification without admitting your ignorance of papal infallibility. Not even the slightest of recognition. This is called "changing the goal post." Not good. I hope that at the very least you will not use that line of reasoning again.

All right, back to the topic at hand. Justification. Do we believe in justification by faith alone? No. Do we believe in justification by works alone? No. For us it is really simple.

1. Without faith a man is not justified.
2. Without works, a man has dead faith.

Because I have written on this issue more than once, and there are plenty of books by much brighter men than me (i.e. Robert Sundenis "Not by Faith Alone"), I will leave it at that.
Posted 2/25/2009 10:33 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!

@Paleocrat_etc - 

“Changing the goalpost?” – I’m sorry, but weren’t you the one, not me, who stressed the connection between the infallibility of the pope and "the promulgation of dogma?"   You believe people are saved by grace and works and you send me to a commentary to justify your beliefs. Personally, I believe the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself. The Bible shows that works are evidence of true salvation, not a means of salvation. There’s a big difference. James is sometimes used in support of your doctrine but if you read it in context it mainly deals with the issue of the evidence of true salvation, the justification of what a person claims to believe. In addition to the Ephesians verse I already mentioned, here are some other examples, of which there are many more:   “And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” – Luk. 7:50   "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." - Rom. 3.28   "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," - Rom. 5.1   “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” - Rom. 10.9   "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus - Gal 2:16   "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ.” - Phil. 3:9   “And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness…” – Jam. 2.23   “…not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.” – Heb. 6.1   In the Old Testament, it says our righteousness acts (our good works) are like “filthy rags” compared to God’s standard of righteousness. - Isa. 64.6   In contrast, the imparted righteousness of God is compared to robe given by God that covers our sins. “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness.” – Isa 61.10   The means of salvation is a major issue with regard to doctrine. There are other issues which don’t line up with the Bible.  It seems overall that you have a low view of scripture and a higher view of the pope’s dogma. Jesus addressed this problem: "‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition." Mark 7:7-9
Posted 2/26/2009 3:20 AM by templestream - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!
Yes, you changed the goalposts. It is not apparent that it was done out of gross ignorance rather than malice. You simply have no clue what we mean by the infallibility of the pope and the connection it has with ex cathedra statements. You saw it as an ontological issue, one of whether or not he sins. That isn't at issue here. Not at all. What is at issue is whether or not universal pronouncements on fundamentals (dogma) that are to be believed by all Christians at all times and all places is guarded by the negative chrism known as infallibility. That is the issue. You just flat out missed the mark.

Can you show me from any Catechism, Creed, Council, or encyclical that declares that we are saved by works? Hint: There are none. Rather than reading relevant material on the matter (like the book by Sungenis I referenced), you latch on to preconceived myths, resurrect a straw man, throw in a number of "proof texts" that oppose the straw man you created, and then walk away feeling as if you have accomplished something. Worse yet, you'll do this over and over and over. I have seen it time and again. I used to do it when I was a protestant.

Faith alone. Even the most ardent Calvinist would add "we are saved by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone. It is a faith that is accompanied by works, and these works are evidence of your faith." So here we have faith and works. Each plays a role. Without works, you have no faith. With faith, you will have works. So if this is a game of chicken and egg, Catholics don't mind saying that faith (and a faith not of yourself) chronologically precedes works. The issue at hand is whether or not we are speaking of what is commonly referred to as "forensic justification." It is here that we part ways.

Luke 7:50 - Yes, her faith saved her. But was it faith alone or were there works accompanying her faith? Yes. She wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. She kissed his feet. She even anointed his feet. Then Jesus says something unique in verse 47. He uses the word "For." This is introducing his rationale for his preceding remarks concerning her being forgiven. He says "For she loved much." She loved him, had faith in him, and performed acts of contrition.

Romans 3:27 - Contextually he is dealing with the works of the Law as given to the Jews. We know this from verse 28. "Or is God the God of the Jews only?" Verse 31 is also of interest in that he says that our faith does not overthrow the law, rather to uphold the law. Why? Because if we love (have faith?) in Christ, then we will obey his commandments. Sounds like the Catholic position to me.

Romans 5:1 - Aside from the fact that many early manuscripts omit "by faith," this verse causes no difficulty for the Catholic. For starters, our version of faith is one that is intimately bound with good works, for which we were created. Secondly, the word "alone" is missing.

Romans 10:9 - If you want to take this alone, then we have a serious problem. Jesus said man must be born of spirit and of water. Peter said that they must repent and be baptized. John tells us that if we love Christ (which I presume requires faith), then we will obey his commandments. Even the great commission involves the concept of faith and works! Preach, baptize, make disciples, teach them to obey all I have commanded.

(cont.) And what of heretics? Do you have to hold a specific view of Jesus? Must you believe in the Trinity? Must you believe that the Bible is the word of God? On and on we go. This verse, taken by itself, would open the floodgates to heretics like none other.

Galatians 2:16 - Find me one place in any Council, Creed, catechism, encyclical, or ex cathedra statements that say that we are justified by the works of Torah. None.

Philippians 3:9 - We don't believe that our righteousness is of ourselves. It is a "foreign righteousness," coming from the Lord. We believe that he works righteousness in us, and that through his grace we are able to perform the good works he created us beforehand to accomplish in order to be conformed into the image and likeness of his son. See, you folks have God covering trash with a layer of gold, and just ignoring the trash. We believe he works his righteousness in us, transforming us from trash to gold.

James 2:23 - Why don't you go back and read 14 - 26. So also faith by itself (i.e. alone), if it does not have works, is dead. I will show you my faith by my works. Faith apart from works is useless. Faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works. You see that a person is justified by by and no by faith alone. Hmm... the only place in all of Scripture where there two words are together, and it is in the negative.

Hebrews 6:1 - What are dead works? Any works? I'd love to see your answer here.

Isaiah 64:6 - Our works, done apart from the grace and love of Christ, are filthy rags. So what of I Timothy 20, 5:10, 25? I Timothy 5:10 says a widow is to known for good works. What of Ephesians 2:10? Good works are all over the place! And we are supposed to do them. We were created to do them. Christ has enabled us to do them. The Holy Ghost works in us to do them. But we are to do them.

Lastly, to waste no more time, you know nothing of my inner life. I carry my Bible with me every day, everywhere I go. I don't carry around any papal writings. In arrogance, you threw a stone blindly. As for tradition, I simply acknowledge it as having a proper place and function in the Church. To say that I make it above Scripture is both arrogant and ignorant. Once again, you have no clue who I am or what my spiritual life is like. You know a guy on Xanga. Nothing more.

If you want to poke shots, fine. I am used to it from "Bible Christians" like you. But from this point forward, I have very little interest (and no time) in clashing swords with you. Especially not over texts that were decided upon during the time of Augustine by a bunch Catholic bishops, promulgated by the pope, and then translated and preserved by priests, monks, and hermits. The oldest manuscripts we rely on were penned by people you accuse of being radically at odds with Scripture and who hold traditions of men over the precepts of God. If it wasn't so hysterical, I would cry.
Posted 2/26/2009 5:46 PM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!

"I have very little interest (and no time) in clashing swords with you." Based on your answers, I can understand why. I welcome anyone and everyone who wants to examine the issue of salvation by faith and works at my blog for a discussion.

Posted 2/28/2009 9:17 PM by templestream - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@templestream - 

Based on my answers? You change goalposts. You refuse to admit it. You toss out a number of verses while ignoring the context of the works being talked about as the works of the Law of the Old Covenant. You provide no evidence from an Ecumenical Council, a Creed, a Catechism, or an encyclical that says Catholics believe in salvation by works or that works apart from faith are even remotely meritorious. And you completely ignore the verses that say we can do good works through the grace of Christ in us, and that we are his workmanship created for the works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10). Your argumentation is, to be polite, pathetic.

Yes, little interest. I have debated this more times than I wish to remember. I used to defend it against those raging heretics who didn't have the epiphany the drunk monk did 500 years ago. But it get's old. It's beating a dead horse, and I am one of those who doesn't take pleasure in beating dead horses.

As for time, you are awfully presumptuous. My having even responded to you is somewhat remarkable. I no longer post on this site, and I do my best to refrain from comments. The reasons are quite simple. I am married; I have three children; I attend Latin Mass on a regular basis (30 minute drive one-way); I am a full time student (who lives 30 minutes from the school); I am a political talk-show host with two two-hour programs a week; I am a contributor for The Distributist Review and a member of The Society for Distributism; I am in a bowling league with my handicapped brother; my parents are in the middle of a divorce and I am the only sibling in town for them to talk to; and I am the administrator of my own website (http://thepaleocrat.com) which requires me to update regularly, posting blogs, creating videos, and doing enough research for 10 people. To say my life is busy would be a gross understatement. To top it off, I just got a job at the main talk-radio station in Battle Creek. So for me to have entertained your comments this long is remarkable; and my calling it quits ought not be seen as a "retreat."

I have no fear of people visiting your site to read what you have to say. I have no fear of them reading what you have written here. Neither of us are scholars, and the debate over sola fide didn't begin (and won't end) with us. Better they read and learn than to live their life in ignorance.
Posted 3/1/2009 2:06 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!
We’re all very busy, that’s why I had been trying to get to the point. You believe church doctrine given by “infallible” popes is more reliable than the Holy Scriptures. I disagree. There are two ways I believe I can show the pope’s dogma is not infallible. First is to compare papal doctrine with the body of the scriptures. This, however, you call off limits, a straw man, changing the goal post. I, however, consider doctrine essential to the question and salvation the most essential aspect of doctrine. I see problems in the comments you offered for each scripture I listed. But it is clear you are both too busy and not really interested in my opnion, as you again affirmed. The second way I believe I can show the infallible doctrines are not quite so infallible is to examine history objectively, not through the lens of biased Catholic authors. I believe the main reasons many of these doctrines were created were in fact political, not spiritual. The fruit of some of these doctrines, as they have been played out in history, has shown them to be counter productive and in fact harmful in many respects, hardly inspired from God. Your rather abusive attitude towards me conveys the arrogance of one accustomed to a world of authoritarianism and power abuse, where dogma and ideas are to be accepted without question – actually upon pain of death through most of the chapters of history. I could give you the benefit of the doubt and say you probably aren’t even aware that you are doing it. But then again, it may give you a pleasant, self righteous rush of adrenaline as you confidently flagellate a heretic in the name of the almighty Catholic Church. Many of my friends are Catholic and I try to respect their opinions and decisions in life, but sadly, most, if not all, aren’t really aware of what they believe and why. It seems they simply follow their traditions for tradition’s sake. I’m glad you are not opposed that people visit my blog to read and even discuss the issues, whether on a superficial level or in depth. When all is said and done, may the truth prevail! J
Posted 3/2/2009 4:37 AM by templestream - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@templestream - 

A. Where has the Church ever, ever taught that the pope is more reliable than Holy Scripture? You can't keep pulling stuff out of thin air without documentation. Creeds, Councils, Catechisms, and encyclicals would do well. Where does it ever, ever teach that. If you cannot find one, then do the right thing and a) apologize for lying and/or admit your ignorance and b) never utter that again.

B. Compare papal doctrine with Scripture. You are missing the point here. The pope only speaks infallibly when he speaks ex cathedra. The list would have ex cathedra statements average about one ever 500 years or more. What this demonstrates is that rather than actually educating yourself as to what the infallibility of the Church or the pope really means, you'd rather just type away nonsense at towards people you've never met on an low-level Internet blog forum.

C. On the same issue, you provided me with a number of typical verses Protestant use in defense of your 500-year-old doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I answered them in kind. I even gave a few verses of my own. My verses were simply to point out that we can do, with the assistance of the grace of Christ, good works and that this is our purpose as Christians. You guys give works a bad name. You say that we believe in faith and works (or sometimes just works) will save us. But then Reformed theologians go off and say that we are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Why? Because if a man says he has faith, but has not works, then he doesn't have faith. Nothing like splitting the hairs of a bald man.

D. Looking at history objectively. This can be rather difficult. I have read Church history from both sides of the Tiber. I have read about the evil Catholics both in public school and in private school. I have read about those evil Catholics in books written by Boettner, Gerstner, Sproul, MacArthur, Swaggart, Van Til, B.B. Warfield, James White and others. I have relatively neutral history books as well. Most of these were secular and looked at all religious sects identifying themselves as Christian over the past 2,000 years. On the other hand, I have read a book by Keating which refutes a number of assertions made by anti-Catholic writers. I have read Eusebius' "History of the Church," which is the earliest history book on the Church. And I skimmed through a book by Belloc on the reasons for the Reformation. I have also listened to a tape series on Luther, but I forget the priest's name. At any rate, to insinuate that I have not done my best to look at it from every angle is as presumptuous as it is offensive.

E. On the same issue, why could this not be said of Protestantism? The sectarianism, the rampant heresies, the burgeoning of charismatic Word-Faith and Emergent churches, the scandals (i.e. money, adultery, prostitution, homosexuality, drugs, etc.), and the like have riddled the Protestant churches (there is no such entity in a singular form) for 500 years. Even Philipp Melanchthon had frustrations with Luther concerning his personal life and his inability to hold his tongue. But the bigger issue here is that you have committed a logical fallacy. You have completely ignored the subject/object distinction. To put it simply, one may point to the faults that or I have in our lives, but that doesn't in and of itself, by necessity, invalidate our faith. In context here, nobody would deny that the people within the Catholic Church, from the lowliest all the way up to the popes, have done horrible things. I am personally outrages over how John Paul II winked at gay and pedophile priests. Outraged! But these actions do not touch upon the infallibility of the Church or the pope as infallibility is defined and understood.

F. Lastly, let's deal with arrogance. Your first comment ended with this: I would be interested to know if the following verse is in your own canon of scripture: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Aside from being ignorant, it was arrogant. You presumed, without taking the time to do your homework by getting out any or every Catholic translation of the bible (there are only a few), that Catholics would either take the verse out or ignore it all together. If it wasn't or monks, hermits, and priests preserving the Scriptures through translation and creating copies, you wouldn't even have the MSS necessary to have a bible. Give honor where honor is due. In this case, it is those brave men who at times lost their lives in hope of preserving the Sacred Scripture you insist we ignore and hold in low esteem. You may not like the Catholic Church. You may hate the Catholic Church. But you sure owe Her a debt of gratitude for making sure that the words penned by those most holy apostles weren't left to rot or tampered with. Honor where honor is due.
Posted 3/2/2009 12:19 PM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!

"A. Where has the Church ever, ever taught that the pope is more reliable than Holy Scripture?" - I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what you wrote to me previously..."Do your homework. Our doctrine of infallibility has nothing, and let me repeat, nothing to do with his personal life. If has to do with the promulgation of dogma." - Hmmm...So...I must have missed something.

B. "Compare papal doctrine with Scripture." Whether papal or church doctrine, I'm sorry if this offends you, any doctrine from any source which contradicts scripture is ijn my opinion wrong doctrine, even if it's only once every 500 yrs.

C. "you provided me with a number of typical verses Protestant use in defense of your 500-year-old doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I answered them in kind. - You answered the scriptures "In kind?" and with no desire for any comments back. The cocky attitude of your answers goes to show how low your view of scripture is and how closed minded you are.

D. "At any rate, to insinuate that I have not done my best to look at it from every angle is as presumptuous as it is offensive." - See your own answer C

E "I am personally outrages over how John Paul II winked at gay and pedophile priests. Outraged! But these actions do not touch upon the infallibility of the Church or the pope as infallibility is defined and understood." - The requirment for priests to be celibate is not Biblical. In the NT it was always voluntary. But we are to believe this doctrine is infallible? What about taking money for indulgences, was this also infallible doctrine?

F "You presumed, without taking the time to do your homework by getting out any or every Catholic translation of the bible (there are only a few)" So it's difficult to get Catholic Bibles but I'm ignorant and arrogant because I wrote a comment before I went searching for a Catholic Bible?" I'm sorry, I thought it may have been possible to explain your beliefs in laymen's terms. I guess not. Sorry for wasting your time.

I'm still not clear as to how Catholic doctrine is supposedly infallible, and I do not believe I am very much interested in reading the Catholic Bible at the moment. So it may be a good time to end this dialogue. Though it seems as though you will desire to have the last word on the matter, especially since this is your blog. :) Best regards.



 

Posted 3/21/2009 9:09 AM by templestream - reply

Visit templestream's Xanga Site!

"A. Where has the Church ever, ever taught that the pope is more reliable than Holy Scripture?" - I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what you wrote to me previously..."Do your homework. Our doctrine of infallibility has nothing, and let me repeat, nothing to do with his personal life. If has to do with the promulgation of dogma." - Hmmm...So...I must have missed something.

B. "Compare papal doctrine with Scripture." Whether papal or church doctrine, I'm sorry if this offends you, any doctrine from any source which contradicts scripture is ijn my opinion wrong doctrine, even if it's only once every 500 yrs.

C. "you provided me with a number of typical verses Protestant use in defense of your 500-year-old doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I answered them in kind. - You answered the scriptures "In kind?" and with no desire for any comments back. The cocky attitude of your answers goes to show how low your view of scripture is and how closed minded you are.

D. "At any rate, to insinuate that I have not done my best to look at it from every angle is as presumptuous as it is offensive." - See your own answer C

E "I am personally outrages over how John Paul II winked at gay and pedophile priests. Outraged! But these actions do not touch upon the infallibility of the Church or the pope as infallibility is defined and understood." - The requirment for priests to be celibate is not Biblical. In the NT it was always voluntary. But we are to believe this doctrine is infallible? What about taking money for indulgences, was this also infallible doctrine?

F "You presumed, without taking the time to do your homework by getting out any or every Catholic translation of the bible (there are only a few)" So it's difficult to get Catholic Bibles but I'm ignorant and arrogant because I wrote a comment before I went searching for a Catholic Bible?" I'm sorry, I thought it may have been possible to explain your beliefs in laymen's terms. I guess not. Sorry for wasting your time.

I'm still not clear as to how Catholic doctrine is supposedly infallible, and I do not believe I am very much interested in reading the Catholic Bible at the moment. So it may be a good time to end this dialogue. Though it seems as though you will desire to have the last word on the matter, especially since this is your blog. :) Best regards.



 

Posted 3/21/2009 9:46 AM by templestream - reply

Protestants can do a pretty good job of constructing an authoritative bible by taking the position that the bible is a product of the community of Christians. Thus the community came to a broad consensus over a period of the first few centuries to construct the original bible. The community came to a broad consensus to return to translations of the original languages and abandon Latin. The community from the 1520s through 1820s came to a broad consensus regarding the apocrypha books. Etc... You end up with a very nice Wesleyan position of authority is derived from: Reason, Scripture, Tradition, Experience.
Posted 4/26/2009 9:37 PM by CD-Host (site) - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@CD-Host - 

The product of a the community of Christians? Well, we see that the NT canon most certainly involved, or was the product, of a community of Christians. To this there is no dispute. The difficulty arises when one asks a few vital questions:

a) what standard are you using to define what constitutes a Christian or Christian community?
b) who authorized a specific "Christian community" to perform this task?
c) what makes the decision of this community binding on anyone but those involved?

Using Scripture to define what a Christian is or is not results in a vicious circle, as the Scripture is the very point in question and a community of Christians are being called upon to make decisions regarding inspiration.

What Christian community are you talking about? A bunch of different sects have a consensus. One may very well say "who cares?" to these sects, as they have no ecclesiastical authority over one another. You've boiled the canon down to an arbitrary consensus amongst participants in rival sects without any mandate.

As for the decision, it is in no way binding given Protestant ecclesiology. One church's orthodoxy is another church's heresy. Why couldn't individuals or entire sects toss that "consensus" to the wind? What ramifications would there be for such a thing?

Your consensus is what bites you in the butt here. The majority of Christians in Christian history, from the time of the apostles until present day, have been Catholics. Worldwide, the consensus has been that the deuterocanonicals are inspired, God breathed, and find there rightful place within the canon. This isn't even including the various branches of Eastern Christianity that would say the same.

If one were to take your position serious, we would have such a wide diverse array of canons and traditions that Christianity would be a wax nose, only to be manipulated by anyone or any sect that thinks its consensus is in any way meaningful. In short, your rationale doesn't fly.
Posted 4/27/2009 2:19 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply


Choose Identity
(?)
 
Give eProps (?)
Post a Comment
Add Link | Preview HTML comment help 
Profile Pic:
Default  |  Choose »  (?)



Back to Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!
Note: your comment will appear in Paleocrat_etc's local time zone:
GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)